Anne Cordelia Shirley
Its a hurtful comment to make at such a sensitive time but I can understand it, even if I don't agree with it. Wondering what everyone else thinks of it as a view?
I've little or no knowledge of football but obviously the recent high profile suicide hit the headlines in a big way. I was reading the backlash about Joey Barton's tweet saying the suicide was "a mix of the most tragic, most selfish, most terrible (and I want to believe preventable) acts out there". (link here:
Joey Barton is a thug, little if anything between his ears, attention seeking I'd imagine. Stupid people trying to as someone said, rationalise an irrational decision.
I think this can only end up upsetting people.
Anne Cordelia Shirley
I don't know anything about Joey Barton, I was interested in his comments. I've heard the same said about suicide of people who aren't well known. I don't agree with it, but I wonder how widespread the view is.
Suicide is just so so tragic. Nobody will ever know the rationale for someone taking their own life. It opens up so many questions and guilt for those loved one left behind. One of my best friends mothers committed suicide and left 4 children (one was only 6 at the time) and my friend used the word selfish many times in the context of her mothers suicide. She felt it was selfish for many reasons including the shame on the family, leaving behind such young children and this extra stress on her mourning husband, bringing so much hurt on those you love, leaving so many unanswered questions and guilt with your family. Obviosuly she loved her mother, she reflects on it as tragic and heartbreaking but yes she does think it was a selfish act. She sometimes feels her mother took an easy way out and left so many difficulties for all those left behind. She gets very angry about it at times.
This is her experience and obviously does not equate to everyones opinion. I think it is so heartbreaking that people see no other way out of their problems other than to end it all. Sometimes people who appear to have all the material things in the world. Depression is such a crippling condition. Worse in many ways than any physical illness because it is so invisible, especially for men.
Probably widespread enough, that view. It's the flipside of fear and ignorance for a lot of people. 'Selfish' is not an answer. There are enough of us with experience of various strands of depression and we know lots of folk suspect each other of being on the verge of losing control mentally, and they fear perhaps that the only motivation keeping them from going over the edge is the shame attached to it. We've a long and complicated relationship with shame on these isles, and the over-whelming stigma that arises out of it. It then gets wrapped up in the falsity that the stigma is about selfishness and 'weakness' with the watery implication that losing it is a failure. How the concept gets managed. Until the fog around suicide and mental illness is lifted, then it will always have that threatening fear surrounding it where it orbits the words of failure and selfishness. A collective coping mechanism for many looking on. Coping is as much as anyone can do in the thick of despair, and sometimes, they just can't.
Don't know this Joey Barton chap, but I reckon some discussion on the subject serves a purpose. At best it might change some of those views, at worst it challenges it and that can't be a bad thing, not least for those who suffer.
In my experience the people with the view of suicide being such a selfish thing to do, usually have very little experience or understanding of it, so i find it a little ignorant to mske throwaway comments like that. It's a ridiculous thing to say, how in the name of God is it selfish to be suffering from an illness that makes you feel the only way out is to take your life? The sufferer hardly bloody chose to feel so utterly helpless and miserable that this was all they felt they could do.
It was a ridiculous thing for him to say so close to the death and also so publicly. On another note yeah this guy is meant to be a tool - I don't know too much about him but it wouldn't have hurt for him to just say look I'm sorry if I offended anyone, it's a very delicate subject and he could have been a little more thoughtful.
I don't know Joey Barton so can't say anything on the context other than it was obviously about Gary Speed.
Its the wrong time to say it in my opinion. The guy has just died.
He has a point. I have had a couple of suicides in my family and a couple more attempts - my dad's family wouldn't be the most stable. At its very core suicide is a very selfish act and by that I mean the person is so wrapped up in the pain that they are in that they can't see outside themselves. That doesn't mean that they are bad, uncaring, horrible people but they are simply in such a bad place in their head that they can't see any way out for themselves and are simply unable to think of others.
So what I am trying to say is that they can't help but think of themselves at that time.
Unless you've suffered from anxiety and depression you don't really understand what a person goes through during certain moments of the day. Everyone is marvelling at the fact that Gary Speed was in great form earlier but that means nothing, it only takes a moment of the dark cloud to make you do things where the rational side of your brain is just not at the controls anymore and irrationality and desperation takes over. Often I'm sure the people who commit suicide think they are doing those they are leaving behind a favour as it all just seems so desperate. Anyone who thinks climbing up onto a chair and putting a rope around your neck and kicking that chair from under you is an easy way out is not giving the matter enough thought in my opinion. Imagine for a second, how desperate you'd need to be to do that.
Another point of view on selfishness is a person who eats too much fatty foods depsite the doctor telling them they have cholestral...the continue to indulge in their treats and when they drop dead of a heart attack leaving behind a family you won't hear anyone whisper afterwards 'how selfish' and yet that person basically ate their way to death and left behind a family...same result except for the absence of a mental illness! So surely thats where real selfishness lies.
I have issues with some dead relatives!
But Carolina.... Selfish?! I would think .... Sick, ill, desperate, helpless - just not selfish. Selfish has connotations of not giving a flying f*ck about anyone else and only caring about yourself. My view is that people suffering from Depression and other mental illnesses are not always in their full and healthy mind so I really wouldn't consider their actions to be selfish.
In those minutes before someone kills themselves all I can think of is how awfully sad they must feel inside to do that. I'd also agree with Emme in that they often think they are making people's lives easier by not being here any longer - they aren't rationally thinking of the hurt and confusion they are leaving behind. In a way I can see how some might think that is selfish - I just don't look at it that way at all because they aren't fully in their right mind at that point, they are desperate and unwell.